Resources - EMS Billing

We are not the first municipality to struggle with this question of whether or not to save our single payer EMS system. Montgomery County Maryland has a single payer system and they have fought against the privatizers successfully for several years. Eric Bernard, the Executive Director of the Montgomery County Volunteer Fire and Rescue Association sent me these resources,

The first is a press release from the MCVFRA

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Next we have a study published in the Annals of Emergency Medicine which concludes "economic considerations may effect EMS system utilization among under insured and low income patients experiencing a cardiac event. Prepayment systems (like our single payer system) may increase EMS utilization among these groups"
Some say this study is too old - June 2000. Key question - are economic considerations less significant today?

Annals of Emergency Medicine article

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Next we have Circulation - The Journal of the American Heart Association
This is from their conclusion,

financial concerns may undermine a chest pain patient’s intention to use EMS

Circulation article

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Finally, we have a 2008 study in Bethlehem PA - Patient and Physician Perspectives on Ambulance Utilization. Here a researcher surveyed patients after they reached the ER, and the results are interesting. For instance, twice as many patients who arrived at the ER without an ambulance said that they knew the cost of the ambulance, as those who arrived on an ambulance.

Patient and Physician Perspectives on Ambulance Utilization

EMS Billing Meeting - November 12th

Here's a link to a two minute clip of audio from the Village Board Meeting 10/13/09

Sycophantic? Trustee Thomas impressed us with his vocabulary, and he certainly isn't being sycophantic. A better word for what he is trying to do is "placate"

from dictionary.com,

Placate - verb - to appease or pacify, especially by concessions or conciliatory gestures : to placate an outraged citizenry.

There's a lot in this 2 minute clip. It starts off with Chris Thomas. They're talking about the upcoming "public meeting" and how they don't really want the public involved. Chris is going to preach to us, and then they might except some questions, if we don't get out of line and try to express ourselves during our questions.

You'll hear someone say nobody is calling or emailing or writing or coming to meetings or stopping at Village Hall - good point — what's up with that people?

The main concern expressed at last years meeting, was not wether or not and uninsured person would get a bill, it was wether or not someone might die if they did not call for help, for fear of a bill. Insurance only billing does not fully address this concern. Right now, the average citizen wouldn't even be able to name 1/2 of the trustees. How do you intend to inform them all with the critical details of you're billing policies?

Then you'll hear John Hrubos ask about how going to billing will intersect with whatever changes come from Washington, and Chris Thomas answers — he has no idea. Here's an idea; cool your jets, back off, wait and see. Going to billing now is very bad timing.

Hrubos says that Allen says that going to billing will result in higher insurance premiums, but he doesn't think that's necessarily true.

Thomas - No it's not. It's ridiculous.

Maybe I'm just stupid. Somebody please explain this to me. Are these private for profit insurance companies so magnanimous that they (unlike every other business) don't have to balance income vs expenses? They don't keep track of expenses? They don't have a history of raising rates and increasing profit ratios? Or is the Board just hoping that the increased premiums will be spread out over a larger population (kind of like cheating on your taxes)

Mark your calendars - Thursday, November 12th at 7pm at the Village Hall Meeting Room

Bad Ideas are Hard to Kill

This cartoon ran recently in a Maryland newspaper called the Montgomery County Gazette. We are not alone in this fight against those who would like to privatize wonderful single payer EMS systems. The following is an excerpt from an editorial written by Marcine Goodloe, president of the Montgomery County Volunteer Fire-Rescue Association, and Executive Director Eric Bernard.

In spite of repeated claims that there is no evidence ambulance fees would discourage some from calling for help when needed, the volunteers showed what occurred in Fairfax County, Va., often used as an example by fee supporters. Fairfax County imposed its fee in 2005. EMS call volume dropped from 2004 to 2005 (when adjusted for population growth) and has remained below 2004 levels to date).

The volunteers have given first-hand accounts where rescuers, from fire chiefs to EMTs, witnessed cases where fees played a role in people refusing ambulance service. In fact, at many public hearings and citizen forums the county heard first-hand accounts where ambulance fees caused people not to call and to drive themselves to the hospital in emergencies. What analyses have been done to show that ambulance fees don't deter at least some calls to 911? The county executive has the obligation to prove with facts, not assumptions, that people won't hesitate to call.

There are many reasons why billing is a bad idea, but I'd have to put this one at the top of the list;

* It's likely to kill somebody!

Other reasons,

* The volunteers don't like it - some will quit which,

A.) increases the budget and therefore the taxes

B.) undermines the spirit of volunteerism which is crucial for the well being of the community

C.) makes volunteer recruitment very difficult

* Increases the overall cost to society of the service by envolving for profit corporations

* Moves us in a direction opposite from a single payer health care system which a majority of us support

* The whole country is debating how our health care system will be changed - bad time to change ours - wait

The desire to go to billing is driven by unenlightened narrow self-interest. Opposition to billing is not holistic altruism, it is simply an enlightened, objective view of self-interest. Instead of the short term, capitalistic, free market monetary reward offered by billing, we should consider the well being of society as a whole.

EMS Budget - Special Village Board Meeting 10/1/09

The privatizers are on a roll. Last night's meeting was attended by all Village Board members, and representatives from the Town Boards of Hector and Covert. Those wishing to go to billing, were in a clear majority, in spite of what, in my humble opinion, is an obvious majority of the public, remaining in opposition.

No resolutions were passed but they took a straw poll of the Village Board. Chris Thomas, John Hrubos, and Rordan Hart are strongly supportive of billing, Debbie Notke said that she was on the fence, and Marty Petrovic said that he is leaning in favor of billing.

Mayor Petrovic said that some form of public meeting would be held before going to billing. This is good. I was worried that they might pass a resolution to begin billing last night, and if it were up to the 3 neocons, I suppose they would have.

You will see a link to an mp3 file of the meeting below. If you click on the link, you can listen from within your browser, but there is usually a way to move this mp3 file to your desktop. In Firefox, you wait for the whole file to move to the browser, (a minute or two) then you go - File - Save Page As..... and you can put it anywhere you want. The advantage is that you can then listen with other programs (Real Player, Itunes etc.) which allow you to adjust equalizer settings and they give you a time counter. With the time counter and my notes below, you can jump to the part that interests you.

Here is a link to the audio

The first half of the meeting was tedious. John Hrubos insisted on going over the Fire Department's 2010 budget with a fine tooth comb, in-spite of very little increase in the budget from this year.

I had encouraged Ulysses Town Board candidate, Kevin Romer to come, and he did, but he couldn't stay long enough to participate in the EMS billing discussion. Sorry Kevin.

0 hrs-45mins-20sec One of the Town Board members asks a question about groups using the Fire Hall and wether they should be charged. This might interest the Back to Democracy steering committee members (of which I used to be one) I have often swept the floor and tidied up after Back to Democracy events, and I doubt, that in the years that I have been going, that we used more than five dollars worth of paper towels and toilet paper, so I think this is a silly thing for the Board to worry about. But perhaps Back to Democracy should donate a family pack of paper towels and toilet paper (with their name on every sheet) in order to alleviate the Boards concern that we are using more than what we are entitled to as taxpayers.

Rordan Hart suggests installing security cameras hooked up to a DVR. Maybe we can catch those rascals using too many paper towels. That'll help control costs!

0 47 42 Marty wraps up the Fire Department budget portion of the discussion, and they approve it. Then they begin a long discussion of the EMS budget, before discussing the revenue side.

0 50 20 Chris describes current staffing. I'm confused, but I think we are staffed entirely with paid professionals except for Monday - Thursday nights from 6pm to 6am - volunteers on call, and Friday from 6pm to 12 midnight - volunteer. He calls this almost 24/3, which is confusing. I wish we could just use percentages. Take the total hours in a week- 168 then 54 of them are volunteers on call. That's 32% volunteer, right?

1 04 0 Chris says that the increase from this years EMS budget to next year's proposed budget is 118,000 but then says that about 25 % of that increase is due to a correction in budget procedures. 118,000 minus 25% = 88,500 increase. So 88,500 divided by 8000 residents of the district = $11. Eleven bucks per person. Eleven bucks to keep our single payer system, keep the volunteers who don't like billing, keep the system as it has been for 40 years, and should continue to be. Eleven bucks to ensure that those without insurance need not fear calling for help when they need it. Eleven bucks. This is a crisis?

1 31 0 After much more of the fine tooth combing of the expense side of the EMS budget (Hrubos upset about expensive coats and too much money on the line for fuel) they finally pass a resolution to except the expense side of the budget. $475,828 Then Marty starts the revenue question. He mentions the public meeting from last year and acknowledges a lack of support for going to billing (doesn't acknowledge the more than 2 to 1 ration against billing) Then he points to the "fairly large increase" in the budget - thankfully he doesn't call it a crisis, as others have. (see my eleven dollar calculation above) Then he states that there will be another public meeting.

1 34 0 Chris says that the call volume went down last year. His figures for estimating revenue are assuming 600 calls per year, down from 675. He figures he can get $351,997 per year by going to billing. Big money. Mighty tempting. The village revenue this year is about 1.5 million. Imagine that's your income. You're fairly rich. It's tax time. You see a way that you could cheat on your taxes and save $352,000. Big money. Mighty tempting. This is an imperfect analogy, because tax fraud is illegal and going to billing isn't, but that aside, the moral implications are the same. Hopefully, some people don't cheat on their taxes because they realize that if they don't pay their share, then that tax burden will fall on others. It's actually worse for the Village, because if they don't pay that 352G, and the insurance companies do, then before billing society back in the form of premiums, the insurance companies will add 15 to 30% profit. The IRS doesn't do that.

1 41 00 Chris describes "insurance only billing" He claims that a very large municipality has signed on and is doing it this way, but he won't tell us what municipality that is. He claims this is because they are still in contract negotiations. So, they are doing it with out a contract? Odd.

1 44 09 John Hrubos asks Jason - is the Town of Dryden billing - yes - and they haven't had anybody refusing care "because that would be a very terrible thing" - Jackie Wright answers -" we don't know that" she repeats this several times. She is the president of the Fire Company. Note that John says here that it would be a terrible thing if someone refused service as a result of our going to billing, then the president of the Fire Company infers that that is a possibility, then a few minutes later, John votes in favor of billing. Chris makes it clear that this magnanimous non aggressive billing does not apply to anyone from outside of the district. So, beware you scum bags from Ithaca that dare drive through our district. If you have an accident in our district, we aint gonna be so lenient on you.

1 50 00 Lots of squabbling over how to divide up the loot. (common theme in old Westerns)

2- 0- 0 Marty points out that Ulysses passed a resolution in support of billing, 3 in favor 2 opposed. Then he admits that the makeup of the board is going to be different in January. That's just 3 months away. Here's an idea, ask Roxanne Marino and Kevin Romer how they would vote. They are running unnopposed (except for me on the Green Party line - and I don't intend to campaign against Roxanne) I'm just guessing, but I think it might be 4 to 1 opposed in January, with Dave Kerness being the only one in favor of billing. Ulysses is the largest customer of the EMS, by far. Some on the Village Board appear to be in a hurry to make a decision in November, before the new Ulysses Board is seated on January 1st. Mayor Petrovic does not seem to share this urgency, so there is still hope.

2 04 0 They go around the table getting their "sense of the board" poll (not a resolution) Hart says we are not allowed to bill for fire and police protection (damn!) but we are expected to bill for water and sewer, so we ought to bill for EMS if we can. "I don't see any reason not to" Here's one - few people are afraid of an $800 dollar water bill, and even if they were, that fear wouldn't have life or death consequences.

Hrubos - "I think that the insurance only billing makes this whole thing work" even though the details are really vague.

Notke - "I'm on the fence"..... "I need to look at all the numbers first" ..."Im not completely sold on this"

Thomas - "I've right from the beginning been all about transferring the burden from the taxpayers to the insurance companies where I think it more rightly belongs" Hey Chris, it's not a burden to the insurance companies, it's an opportunity to generate more profit. But nobody seems to be able to penetrate your determined approach to ramming this through.

Petrovic - I'm leaning towards doing this. Sad. He does suggest an early November public meeting.

2 17 20 Chris says that if we go forward we have to make a decision in November. Marty dissagrees.

2 18 30 Public comment period. Me first - I explain for the umpteenth time that this won't save money. You can defer taxes but it will come back as higher premiums. If we assume that when it comes back (plus profit), it will land on a wide segment of society then it's like cheating on your taxes (see above). Then I complain of unanswered questions about the "insurance only billing" and after listening to myself - I failed to connect the dots. I talked about Rod Ferintino's story about going on EMS calls to vehicle accidents where patients would not accept help for fear of a bill. He can now tell them there will be no bill. If we go the "insurance only billing" will Rod be able to tell someone on the scene of an accident, that there will be no bill? This is an unanswered question. Very important. I think I know the answer.

Then I read this,

You are justifying this move to billing by saying that volunteerism is decreasing at the EMS, which results in higher taxes which our community is unwilling to pay. I believe that the average citizen is willing to pay this modest increase which is peanuts compared to our overall tax bill when all taxes are included. The tax for our EMS is the best value that we can buy with our tax dollars. But lets study this decreasing volunteerism that you like to call a "paradigm shift". A paradigm shift is a radical change in people's perception of their world. When we learned that the earth wasn't really flat and that we couldn't sail off of the edge, that forced a paradigm shift on us. If we were suddenly to realize that our own selfish interests should guide how we structure government services, and that concern for the well being of our neighbors was misplaced, and that greed was good, and volunteerism was outmoded, that would be a paradigm shift. The good news, is that this is not happening. A study of figures at the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows a slight increase from 07 to 08 in overall volunteerism. At the same time there is a slight decrease in volunteerism in the public safety sector. Why would this be?

All that it would take to deter volunteers, is an understanding that their work would be billed for, and a portion of the proceeds would go to further enrich the CEO's of private for profit health insurance companies, and pay for their lobbyists in Washington. It cannot be denied, that if we go to billing, the insurance companies will add profit, turn the bills around, and bill it right back in the form of premiums. That's just how it works.

I want to help. If you would promise not to go to billing for 3 years, I would join the EMS, and try to persuade others to join. I know that the leaders of the EMS have their own recruitment efforts, but they are being handicapped by this talk of "paradigm shifting" and billing. Promise to layoff for 3 years. I will report to the Board on behalf of the volunteers, and I will turn this trend around. If, at the end of 3 years, I haven't increased volunteerism, you can look at billing again.

If we lose our volunteers, we lose much more than money. These volunteers foster a spirit of concern and cooperation and civic responsibility that is crucial to the proper functioning of our community.

Lastly, it is essential that you hold another public hearing before going to billing. The public told you by a two to one margin that they did not want you to go to billing at last years public hearing. The public does not know what you are doing. It would be profoundly undemocratic for you to go to billing without a public comment period.

2 23 17 Geoffrey Hart - He says that because there is a great variation in the rate of use of the EMS service, that the only fair way to deal with it is a fee for service system. Wouldn't that apply to the Fire and Police services too? Why don't we bill for all of these? Because, over the years we democratically decided that it was in the best interest of society to establish these services, and that it would be unwise to structure these service so that someone didn't call when their house was on fire for fear of a bill. Now, people like Geoffrey are arguing that it is resonable to change our system in such a way that we increase the overall cost to society and at the same time create a fear in some people, that if their body (more valuable than their house) is on fire, they don't call for help for fear of the cost.

2 25 00 Jackie Wright president of the Fire Company. She says that she doesn't think the board has looked at all of the options. also "It's difficult when you go to someone's house and they say they aren't going to go because they will have to pay. It has happened, and Brian knows this, I've gone and I've had people say, because the billing issue has come up in the paper, that they're not going to go. Which is exactly what you don't want to do"

Hello? John, Chris, Rordan? Anybody listening?

2 28 32 Chris says that he'd be happy to come to the meeting on Oct 7 and present the proposal and answer questions, but he's not going to debate the issue. (closed mind?) Jackie says the volunteers want to know what the community wants. Marty says we legally can't have a referendum. Jackie says there are other ways. Chris says not effectively.

How about sending out a questionaire to a the whole district or a random sample. Maybe I should do that. If Chris wrote the questionaire, it would have a whole different flavor. Anybody want to fund a mailing of a couple hundred questionaires?

2 34 30 a discussion of the format of the special village board meeting (public hearing has some legal strings they don't like) I ask if it will be the same format as last years meeting. John Hrubos says "We're not going to go thru people standing up and testifying one way or the other on behalf of the EMS" I ask why not? John "Nobody's denying that the EMS provides a valuable service, that is not the issue what so ever" Well of course it's not John the issue is who pays, which has consequences. And that's what most people talked about last year. You were there. Were you listening? I posted the audio on this blog. check it out.

I said "So last year, they told you by a two to one margin not to do it, and you don't want to have the same format because you're afraid you might get the same answer?"

John said "There's no point in it. What was discussed was not the issue"

Yeah right, not exactly what you wanted to discuss. Let's ignore all the troublesome crap about people not accepting help, and increasing overall cost to society, and volunteers quitting.

Hopefully, the Mayor will decide the format of this meeting.

At the end they go into an executive session (don't know what that's about)

EMS Budget - Special Village Board Meeting 8/24/09

The privatizers are back.

The Village Board met tonight to discuss the "crisis" with the EMS budget. Chris Thomas explained that because of decreasing volunteerism, the EMS budget would have to see an increase of 25% next year. The likely figure for next year will be $425,000. I'm guessing there are about 8000 people served by the ambulance. (Ulysses, Trumansburg, and parts of Hector and Covert) $425,000 / 8000 = $53/person/year. Please, let me pay it. Don't start billing. Don't get into bed with the damn private for profit insurance companies. I've been telling them for a year, and they still don't get it. If we cost shift part of our $53 tax burden, onto the insurance companies, they will shift it back onto us in the form of higher premiums. The cost to the average family of four for health insurance is currently $13000. It is estimated to double in the next 7 to 8 years. $26,000 is nearly half of the average income of a Ulysses worker. That's a real crisis. 18,ooo people a year die, in the US, because they didn't have health insurance. That's a real crisis. Some of those 18,000 died because they didn't call an ambulance because they couldn't afford it. That's a shame.

There is no crisis in paying for our wonderful single payer ambulance. It's the best value I get for my tax dollar. $53 and we get quick response from trained emt's and nobody gets a bill. My neighbor that doesn't have health insurance doesn't need to fear a big bill when her kid has an asthma attack. If we go to billing, the insurance companies will raise premiums to cover the cost - plus profit! Then not only will the uninsured not call when they need an ambulance, but those of us that do have insurance will become part of the system that allows the insurance industry to make obscene profits.

The Village held a public forum last year to get feedback from the community on wether or not to go to billing. The overwhelming majority said NO! What part of "no" don't they understand?

We have to tell them again and again.

here's a link to the audio



0-10-10 Chris Thomas explains that the factor that will result in either a modest tax increase, or going to billing, is decreasing volunteerism. "And knowing that volunteerism is dwindling, like nationally, it's just a trend, um, we obviously can't predict, but, the number has been floated that within 3 to 5 years, we are going to be a 24/7 department, we're not going to have volunteers to cover it."

I've researched this at the Bureau of Labor Statistics, and at the Corporation for National and Community Service. Volunteerism in general is not decreasing, it actually increased slightly from 07 to 08. Volunteerism at Fire and EMS departments decreased slightly. Could this be because what is happening here in Trumansburg is happening in other communities, and volunteers don't like their EMS companies being privatized?

0-14-08 Chris - "...but, and this is a big but, you have to realize that this is based on a 600 call volume, when we start direct billing, if that is the route that we go, the call volume is going to go down, guaranteed." Chris explains that this is because patients who are abusing the system will be less likely to abuse the system, if they realize that they will get a bill. He doesn't seem concerned that some of his constituents who will be wary of a bill, are in real need of emergency service. Conservatives like Chris can't stand the thought of Ronald Reagan's "welfare queen" being supported by his tax dollars. If some hard working Ulysses citizen, that doesn't earn enough to be able to afford the outrageous cost of private for profit health insurance, gets harmed by the move to billing, that's just collateral damage. Chris said that another municipality went to billing, and their call volume went down 40% . I find it very hard to believe that 40% of potential patients decided not to call because they didn't really need an ambulance, and they were only going to call because they knew it was free. I guess I just have a little higher respect for my neighbors than that.

0-17-50 Rod Ferintino "the other thing is, we get on a lot of wrecks (vehicle accidents) and people are seriously hurt and they're refusing to go to the hospital, because they ask, is there a bill? ..... It's going to make it even more difficult for the people in the field to convince people to go ...... there's a lot of people that refuse to go." Rod is an EMS volunteer. He's in favor of billing! He sees people in need of help, who won't accept his help for fear of a bill. He now can tell them there is no bill - and he wants to go to billing! I don't get it. I believe this is called cognitive dissonance. Rod needs therapy.

0-19-30 Chris explains what a great deal we can get from the third party billing company - Professional Ambulance Billing (Buffalo) they will charge $28/ call. They are like a little leech that attaches itself to the big leech, that is the private for profit health insurance industry, that sucks the blood of we the people.

0-24-19 Chris "This is also a highly traveled tourist area especially during wine season, and that means that we're taking care of all the tourists who aren't paying taxes in this area" Right. And if you visit any of the developed countries in the world and need an ambulance, they will take care of you and you won't get a bill. If you go to many municipalities in this country, that have resisted the pull towards privatization, they also will provide free ambulatory care if you need it. It's called civilized society.

0-31-0 Rod says that in Dryden they went to 24/7 paid, and the volunteerism increased. I don't know what they're smoking in Dryden, but the volunteers that I've spoken to in Trumansburg don't like billing, so if 24/7 goes hand in hand with billing, then volunteerism will decrease.

0-36-0 Rod says that it's inevitable that we have to bill. Otherwise we have to put it on the taxpayer, and the "taxpayer has enough on his plate." I'm a taxpayer - I want to pay. Please don't do it! Let me pay! Most of my tax dollars go to pay for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and bailing out Wall Street. I don't want to pay for that. This is what taxes should be for. This is the best value I get for my tax dollar. Leave my Ambulance service alone! The tax increase that you are talking about is peanuts compared to my overall taxes. Chill out!

0-39-0 Doug Austic asks how soon we could go to billing. Chris - "The ambulance billing could literally be instituted within two months. We're probably talking about within 6 months. Almost assuredly before the next budget cycle starts."

0-42-30 Rod '' You're gonna find that if you change the system in any way, there's gonna be a lot of volunteers that are gonna be very upset and they're gonna walk out the door" Exactly right Rod. Good reason not to do it!

0-42-20 - Rod and Rordan Hart argue about who is forcing a paradigm shift on who. Very amusing. Rod doesn't quite understand the word. Rordan gets all huffy and says that the "system is forcing a paradigm shift on the Village. ''

If we all were to become selfish bastards like the hero of an Ayn Rand novel, and rebel against taxes and refuse to voluntarily help our neighbors in need, that would be a "paradigm shift", but that's not what's happening here. Is it?

0-52-0 Somewhere around this mark, they talk about the Village needing the town's support, because the town is the largest customer of the EMS. As I write this, the Town has just passed a resolution in favor of billing. The three members at this meeting, Austic, Ferintino, and Kerness, in favor, and Thomas and Tyler opposed. When Roxanne Marino takes office, the balance will shift - 3 to 2 opposed.

0-54-30 public comment period starts with me. I'm the only one in the room against billing. I mention my concern that Chris's "insurance only" idea for billing is really just a smokescreen. I got my back of the envelope calculations wrong here. It's actually less expensive per citizen than I thought. If we continue with our current system, no billing, and continue with the current level of volunteers, our taxes for the EMS will be, on average, about $53/citizen/year. That is not a crisis.

1-02-00 More cognitive dissonance. Jason Fulton, the Fire Chief, says that he would be willing to pay several times more than he now pays, to know that Paramedics were ready to roll from the Fire Hall that have the training and equipment and certification, to save his kid if need be. And yet Jason is for billing. Jason has insurance. He's not worried about a bill. At least 15% of Ulysses, Hector and Covert, don't have health insurance and would be very worried about bills.

1-04-00 Ron McLean (I think) urges the board to inform the public about whichever way they go on billing. I don't think that they intend to inform the public. They did that last year at the public forum, and the public told them, that by a two to one margin, they were against billing. That's not the kind of input they are looking for.

1-06-00 Carstensen "I don't think anybody should fool themselves, that when we shift the cost onto the private for profit insurance companies, that it's not going to come back, it's definitely going to come back, maybe not on Trumansburg specifically, but it will come back on the people. The profit ratio of theses private for profit health insurance companies just keeps going up, and up, and up. When they see an expense come in, they're going to bill for it. So, you might save some taxes, but you're not going to save the people any money, because it's going to come right back, plus profit. One of the reasons that insurance is going up, and it's going to double in the next 7 to 8 years, there's a million reasons, but one of them is probably municipalities, like us, doing just what we're doing.

.............No response


Marty Petrovic moves the conversation to the Fire side.